[ridenrain]

I think he was the crackpot czar.

[Zipperfish]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Approximately 600,000 dead in Iraq has been teh biggest massacre in this milleniium,

Sigh. Zip, don't use moral relativism to compare Iraq War deaths to an actual massacre. Also, your number is from the highly disputed Lancet study, which attributes that 600,000 death toll. There are four other numbers discussing civilian death tolls, ranging from 92,500-1,033,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

...

Partisanship goes both ways, Zip.

First off, you mean moral equivalency, not moral relativity. True to a point, I'll grant you. Many of the deaths in Iraq were due to mass bungling by the American invaders than to any systematic policy to eradicate Iraqis. I'm not that big on morals though, as you know, at least as they apply to non-human entities such as states. More of a results-based kind of guy.

The Lancet study was probably the most scientifically credible of the studies. The 92,000 number is even an admitted lo-ball by the people who came up with it (Iraqi body count, which only counts newspaper reports of deaths). The Opinion Reserach Business survey is quite high, so I picked one around the middle--600,000. And as stated, that remains the largest violent death count for any event so far this century.

And as much as I abhor the Bush administration for initating that slaughter, I don't think we should have a monument to the 600,000d dead Iraqis in Ottawa.

Now that's a hell of a lot more research then anyone on this thread has provided for this 100,000 million number. NBow perhaps I could be swayed if I thought for one minute anyone gave a shit about teh alleged 100 million poor dead souls, but they don't. The political left, by definition, is closer to communism than the right on the political spectrum, so this is a nice convenient way to put, for example, the founders of socilaized medicine in Canada in the same league as the greatest mass killers of the 20th century. That's what I mean by partisan hackery.

Also, in my defence, if you view my various positions on a wide range of issues in my time here, I think you'd find that though I certainly tend to the left side of the spectrum, I am by no means exclusive in that regard. On many issues I'm very crtiical of the left and side with the conservatives. "Partisan hackery" is when a person religiously sides with one particular side and their position on any given issue is simply copied from whatever the offical orthodoxy is for their particular party.

[Zipperfish]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

I challenge you to find a post anywhere, where I said I supported the Iraq war.

But just to clear up what your saying, in your mind is there a difference between democracy and a totalitarian dictatorship?

Or do you believe that people who usurp power from the people to create their own police states are perfectly legitimized, because they're communists?

If you didn't good for you--I reatrct the implication.

Frankly I'd rather live in a democracy. But, I think hisotory shows that they can be given to excesses of their own. Slavery, empires, messy wars yadda yadda yadda. And do you really think that people don't usurp power in our democratic system?

Bottom line: I'm not into a bunch of ideological claptrap.

Why not just build a huge statue of Satan and have a monument to all the victims of Evil.

[commanderkai]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

True to a point, I'll grant you. Many of the deaths in Iraq were due to mass bungling by the American invaders than to any systematic policy to eradicate Iraqis.

And others due to insurgents, and others due to basic crime.

$1:

The Lancet study was probably the most scientifically credible of the studies. The 92,000 number is even an admitted lo-ball by the people who came up with it (Iraqi body count, which only counts newspaper reports of deaths). The Opinion Reserach Business survey is quite high, so I picked one around the middle--600,000. And as stated, that remains the largest violent death count for any event so far this century.

There were three under 200,000, one that was 600,000, and another that was over a million, and you choose the one that was six hundred thousand? You still picked the higher choice to try to make your point. But whatever, we all do this in political debate.

Hell, I'll give kudos to Mr. Canada to actually using the average count between 100,000-150,000 deaths.

$1:

Now that's a hell of a lot more research then anyone on this thread has provided for this 100,000 million number. NBow perhaps I could be swayed if I thought for one minute anyone gave a shit about teh alleged 100 million poor dead souls, but they don't.

Much like I'm sure you really don't care about those "alleged" 100,000-1,000,000 deaths during the Iraq War. Do I know if you do or don't? Doesn't really seem to matter, because you're making the same, probably baseless assumption. For all we know riden has some Russian ancestry, or Polish even. For all I know you're an Iraqi who left during the Saddam years.

$1:

The political left, by definition, is closer to communism than the right on the political spectrum, so this is a nice convenient way to put, for example, the founders of socilaized medicine in Canada in the same league as the greatest mass killers of the 20th century. That's what I mean by partisan hackery.

And yet, nobody ever mentioned Tommy Douglas in this entire thread. The Communist ideology has brought a great deal of deaths in human history, from Stalin, to Mao, and I'm sure plenty of other dictators between them. If I didn't read between the lines enough, please show the implication.

$1:

Also, in my defence, if you view my various positions on a wide range of issues in my time here, I think you'd find that though I certainly tend to the left side of the spectrum, I am by no means exclusive in that regard. On many issues I'm very crtiical of the left and side with the conservatives. "Partisan hackery" is when a person religiously sides with one particular side and their position on any given issue is simply copied from whatever the offical orthodoxy is for their particular party.

Alright, I'll apologize for that, you aren't a hack like some others on this site.

[Public_Domain]

[Zipperfish]

commanderkai commanderkai:

There were three under 200,000, one that was 600,000, and another that was over a million, and you choose the one that was six hundred thousand? You still picked the higher choice to try to make your point. But whatever, we all do this in political debate.

Hell, I'll give kudos to Mr. Canada to actually using the average count between 100,000-150,000 deaths.

There were two casualty estimates published in peer-reviewed journals. One is the Lancet study (655,000). The other study is the Iraq Family Health Survey (151,000). Both studies found similar excess deaths from the war; the biggest difference is that the former study attributed all excess deaths to violence, and the latter attributed about one-third of the excess deaths to violence. Whatever--take your pick. But don't forget to include the injured, the maimed, the refugees, the traumatized children. It was nasty. It continues to be nasty. And communism had nothing to do with it.

$1:

Much like I'm sure you really don't care about those "alleged" 100,000-1,000,000 deaths during the Iraq War. Do I know if you do or don't? Doesn't really seem to matter, because you're making the same, probably baseless assumption. For all we know riden has some Russian ancestry, or Polish even. For all I know you're an Iraqi who left during the Saddam years.

And you provide no evidence of this 100 million number. So far I've provided several paragraphs of evidence re: Iraq casualties; you've provided--nada.

$1:

And yet, nobody ever mentioned Tommy Douglas in this entire thread. The Communist ideology has brought a great deal of deaths in human history, from Stalin, to Mao, and I'm sure plenty of other dictators between them. If I didn't read between the lines enough, please show the implication.

The Communist ideology also came to Canada where it morphed into the socialist ideology. These socialists were decried as communists, spied upon, occassionally killed. Socialism is still often lumped in with communism, especially by the far right. Maybe my fear that this is just a cynical political ploy by conservativres is illegitimate, but that's the way it feels to me all the same.

$1:

Alright, I'll apologize for that, you aren't a hack like some others on this site.

Well, you got a lot of class. We may be oppsed on many issues, but I always apprecaite your rationality, thoughfulness and passion on issues. We both lack in the tact department occassionally!

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

We both lack in the tact department occassionally!

Meh, tact is for people that aren't witty enough to be sarcastic

[commanderkai]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

And you provide no evidence of this 100 million number. So far I've provided several paragraphs of evidence re: Iraq casualties; you've provided--nada.

Really Zip? You really want to see the numbers about the deaths caused by the Communist ideology or its sub-sects?

To quote The Black Book of Communism

65 million in the People's Republic of China
20 million in the Soviet Union[3]
2 million in Cambodia
2 million in North Korea
1.7 million in Africa
1.5 million in Afghanistan
1 million in the Communist states of Eastern Europe
1 million in Vietnam[4]
150,000 in Latin America

Equaling about 100,000,000 or so people dying. Sigh, Zip, this is rather low from you, I expect better. I'm actually surprised you'd argue that various Communist leaders haven't mass murdered (in various forms, from famines, to war, to death squads) millions.

$1:

The Communist ideology also came to Canada where it morphed into the socialist ideology. These socialists were decried as communists, spied upon, occassionally killed. Socialism is still often lumped in with communism, especially by the far right. Maybe my fear that this is just a cynical political ploy by conservativres is illegitimate, but that's the way it feels to me all the same.

Except that the memorial is this "Memorial to the Victims of Totalitarian Communism", so unless Tommy Douglas was a Totalitarian Communist, you're overreacting. I mean, I'd be outraged if I saw a statue of Douglas next to Mao, and Stalin (among many others)and the fact that the name might offend a few communists within Canada is basically stupid. Once again, if we change the name because we might offend a few communists, we might as well start tearing down or renaming all WWII, and Holocaust museums to avoid offending Neo-Nazis.

[Public_Domain]

[ridenrain]

The trick is to kill the right ones so the rest change their minds. Those preditor strikes in Pakistan are doing exacttly that. When you're replacing a guy that was missiled last week, you have to think that you may never live long enough to be all you can ever be.

[Public_Domain]

[Proculation]

People have to understand that democracy and communism/socialism is incompatible. That's why they all turned up into dictatorships. Socialism is the control of everything by the state and the removal of private property. The first (and the worthiest) private property you have is your life.

[ridenrain]

Exactly. Capitalism is happy to sit back and make money but communism can't stand the existance of others. It needs external threats to promote itseld, be they legitimate or fabricated.

[commanderkai]

Mr_Canada Mr_Canada:

If the Communists killed 1.5 Million people in A'stan and lost, we don't have a chance in friggen hell.

Eh. The Soviets in Afghanistan weren't after the "hearts and minds" like we try to do. We might not do a great job at it, but the USSR wouldn't blink an eye if they accidentally blew up a wedding party of a mosque during a bombing campaign.

[martin14]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Mr_Canada Mr_Canada:

If the Communists killed 1.5 Million people in A'stan and lost, we don't have a chance in friggen hell.

Eh. The Soviets in Afghanistan weren't after the "hearts and minds" like we try to do. We might not do a great job at it, but the USSR wouldn't blink an eye if they accidentally blew up a wedding party of a mosque during a bombing campaign.

oh yeah

I miss the good ol' days...