[saturn_656]

rickc rickc:

Peasants armed with rifles were able to take on U.N. forces and fight to a draw.That makes a powerfull statement.

I've never heard the People's Liberation Army described as a force of "peasants with rifles" before.

Soldiers is the usual term.

[saturn_656]

Stellar Stellar:

To put it simply, because Canadian labour has put less man-power in "occupying" it than the fruits that 1/5 of the world's population would have to gain from it.

One Canadian ice-breaker by 2017 speaks for itself.

I, respectfully, disagree with your POV.

So does most of Canada, I'm sure.

$1:

Ay, your almost there - just think even further to the collective benifit of the world's people and descendants.

I don't care to see China take over this country.

[mentalfloss]

So getting back to fun hypothesis (hypotheses?), what would be the worst possible outcome if we let China take it? That is, the arctic - not the rest of Canada.

[ShepherdsDog]

Polar Bears disappear over night and so does the doctor shortage.

[Arctic_Menace]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Polar Bears disappear over night and so does the doctor shortage.

Good one.

What really should happen as far as Canada and the Arctic is concerned, is to finish mapping the ocean floor and present and settle all claims that will be settled by the Convention on the Law of the Sea. Then, Canada should work WITH Denmark and America on settling their border disputes WRT Hans Island and the Beaufort Sea respectively. That way, Canada can focus on dealing with Russia and its claims. After that, we can deal with China, France and any other douche bags with feelings of entitlement.

Since Russia plans to build a fleet of icebreakers in order to establish a Murmansk-Churchill shipping lane/route, we should add focus on Churchill, turning it into a far better trade hub. There are rail links going up there. Our deep water port at Nanisivik should be expanded to become a Canadian Force naval and air base, giving us better coverage of the Archipelago. Iqaluit should also be of prime focus and the Coast Guard should enforce all ships coming through to register, making Iqaluit a point of interest. later on, when the time and situation calls for it, it can become yet another deep water port.

Price should be no object(especially given Harper's recent spending craze) for our Arctic Patrol ships(which should be year round) and going forward with the three armed ice-breakers for the Coast Guard.

As far as aerial patrol is concerned, thankfully we have Radarsat 2 in space that's helping. Furthermore, Canada should either build or buy a dedicated fleet of long-range UAV's that could operate out of Iqaluit's or Yellowknife's airport. Additionally, Canada can devote existing RCMP, Transport Canada and Coast Guard resources in the form of their aircraft fleets to conduct routine patrols in the Arctic. Military-wise, Canada should acquire an Aurora/Arcturus replacement as soon as possible that has the range needed to effectively patrol our northern reaches. Several of these replacement aircraft should be permanently based in Yellowknife and/or Iqaluit in order to limit the time it takes to respond. Currently, it takes roughly 12 hours for Auroras from Greenwood to reach the Arctic. That is unacceptable.

If Harper really wants to show that Canada means business in the Arctic, he'll do what I mentioned above and won't simply offer token gestures and actions. Also, he can't get away with the "cost-effective" line anymore, since somehow he found $1B for the G8/G20 and $4B for four heavy-lift transports.

[herbie]

You want to trash someone else as unCanadian and then use the word "claim"?
We don't "claim it", it's fucking OURS, our people are IN it. Only goddam foreigners tell us it's 'just a claim'.

We don't need dreadnoughts to assert sovereignty, you use those to steal what isn't yours.
We should send a rep to China and agree to let them flap their gums for two years and then sell the icebreaker to us because we can't seem to get our shit together and build any.

[bootlegga]

rickc rickc:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

rickc rickc:

It was pretty cold at the Chosin resevoir.Ragtag Chinese forces managed to overcome the cold and kick some serious U.N. ass during the Korean War.I don't think the Chinese are afraid of the cold,or dying.Fighting the Chinese is like killing cockroaches.You kill one,and ten more take his place.I wouldn't sell these guys short.

Look up "Hill 667", "Battle of Kap'yong"

The battle of Kapyoug was a brilliant victory for Canadian forces,but it was only one battle in a very long [present day included] war.Don't get me wrong here,I'm not rooting for the other team.I am only pointing out that the Chinese can fight in the cold too.The Korean war would likely have been over in 1950 without the intervention of the Chinese.Peasants armed with rifles were able to take on U.N. forces and fight to a draw.That makes a powerfull statement.

Fighting in the cold 25 miles from your own border is one thing, fighting thousands of miles away, supported by precarious lines of supply is an entirely other thing. Lots of armies can fight in the cold, but doing it well in those conditions is another thing. Look at how successful armies invading Russia have been in the past couple of centuries, fighting in the cold at the end of very long supply lines.

Yes, the Chinese military is large, but it is also largely obsolete. Their navy is mostly made up of ships smaller than ours, their subs are either Russian made rustbuckets incapable of Arctic operations (or Chinese copies of the same), or noisy nuke boats that can be heard on the other side of the Pacific ocean, and their army has zero cold weather experience in more than two generations. Their air force is modernizing, but despite that, most of it is still Korean War vintage. China versus Canada alone in a fight in the Arctic would be difficult enough. Once NATO showed up, it'd be over in a matter of days.

[DrCaleb]

rickc rickc:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

rickc rickc:

It was pretty cold at the Chosin resevoir.Ragtag Chinese forces managed to overcome the cold and kick some serious U.N. ass during the Korean War.I don't think the Chinese are afraid of the cold,or dying.Fighting the Chinese is like killing cockroaches.You kill one,and ten more take his place.I wouldn't sell these guys short.

Look up "Hill 667", "Battle of Kap'yong"

The battle of Kapyoug was a brilliant victory for Canadian forces,but it was only one battle in a very long [present day included] war.Don't get me wrong here,I'm not rooting for the other team.I am only pointing out that the Chinese can fight in the cold too.The Korean war would likely have been over in 1950 without the intervention of the Chinese.Peasants armed with rifles were able to take on U.N. forces and fight to a draw.That makes a powerfull statement.

It also shows that Canadians do not back down from a fight. Do not discount our resolve to protect our interests either. We'll take on any comers, and we'll win. I'm proud that in our military history; we've never started a fight, stood our ground, and never lost. Not many armed forces can say that.

And as Boots says, an Arctic battle on our home ground would be a serious challenge for any invading military.

[GreenTiger]

Yes, indeed. Make it a very serious challenge.

[BartSimpson]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

And as Boots says, an Arctic battle on our home ground would be a serious challenge for any invading military.

An Arctic battle on your home ground will be a more serious challenge for Canada.

Just for a war game scenario let's say that Russia quietly lands a well-prepared force on Banks Island, above the Arctic Circle. They set up an airfield and they land supplies and quickly get an anti-air battery set up.

What does Canada do to get them out? (And let's assume the US President is someone who is not all that keen on getting the US involved past writing nasty letters to the UN).

The closest fighter base to Banks Island is Cold Lake, Alberta, about 2100Km away. Your CF-188s have a fighting radius of about 550Km which can be extended with the use of the two tankers you have. Were I the Russians, I'd make a point of neutralizing those two tankers and that would put an end to your fighter threat to their base on Banks.

Now you have no air cover in the area until you build a forward base. Now the critical time of when the Russians are, so to speak, half on and half off the proverbial beach will be missed. So by the time Canada spins up the required logistics to take back the island the Russians have made it into their own little Gibraltar.

Your naval ice breakers don't figure in this because they don't exist. Your ground forces don't figure into it because they can't get there at all. Your submarines don't figure into it because the subs you have can't go under the ice that far.

So while a Russian seizure of Banks Island would pose issues for the Russians to hold onto it, the greater challenge falls to Canada to dislodge them.

[DrCaleb]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

And as Boots says, an Arctic battle on our home ground would be a serious challenge for any invading military.

An Arctic battle on your home ground will be a more serious challenge for Canada.

Just for a war game scenario let's say that Russia quietly lands a well-prepared force on Banks Island, above the Arctic Circle. They set up an airfield and they land supplies and quickly get an anti-air battery set up.

What does Canada do to get them out? (And let's assume the US President is someone who is not all that keen on getting the US involved past writing nasty letters to the UN).

The closest fighter base to Banks Island is Cold Lake, Alberta, about 2100Km away. Your CF-188s have a fighting radius of about 550Km which can be extended with the use of the two tankers you have. Were I the Russians, I'd make a point of neutralizing those two tankers and that would put an end to your fighter threat to their base on Banks.

Now you have no air cover in the area until you build a forward base. Now the critical time of when the Russians are, so to speak, half on and half off the proverbial beach will be missed. So by the time Canada spins up the required logistics to take back the island the Russians have made it into their own little Gibraltar.

Your naval ice breakers don't figure in this because they don't exist. Your ground forces don't figure into it because they can't get there at all. Your submarines don't figure into it because the subs you have can't go under the ice that far.

So while a Russian seizure of Banks Island would pose issues for the Russians to hold onto it, the greater challenge falls to Canada to dislodge them.

I hear ya Bart. I know we need these things. But one point, CF-18s from Cold Lake refuel out of Yellowknife all the time. It is their FOB.

[BartSimpson]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

I hear ya Bart. I know we need these things. But one point, CF-18s from Cold Lake refuel out of Yellowknife all the time. It is their FOB.

That means having fighters operate out of Yellowknife. With no anti-air in place Yellowknife would just be a footnote on the Russian things-to-bomb list.

No offense, mind you. I'm just saying and I'm glad you realize I am 100% on Canada's side in this.

Seriously, if the balloon went up like this and the US stayed out I'd come volunteer for the CF. I'd also pay my own way.

[Dragom]

Even Tuktoyuktuk has a handy airport.

The real trick is if we could get a couple tanks in place.

PS Fighters count as AA

[BartSimpson]

Dragom Dragom:

Even Tuktoyuktuk has a handy airport.

The real trick is if we could get a couple tanks in place.

PS Fighters count as AA

An airport is not equal to an air base.

And when they are on the ground, taking off, and landing then fighters are just expensive targets and not much else.

[BartSimpson]

To clarify, various airstrips without anti-air can be taken out by cruise missiles that drop cluster bombs to crater the runways. I imagine the Russians in this scenario would probably do that right at the start or they could get even more creative and seize the air strips and emplace anti-air of their own as a trap.