[DrCaleb]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

I hear ya Bart. I know we need these things. But one point, CF-18s from Cold Lake refuel out of Yellowknife all the time. It is their FOB.

That means having fighters operate out of Yellowknife. With no anti-air in place Yellowknife would just be a footnote on the Russian things-to-bomb list.

No offense, mind you. I'm just saying and I'm glad you realize I am 100% on Canada's side in this.

Seriously, if the balloon went up like this and the US stayed out I'd come volunteer for the CF. I'd also pay my own way.

It's not my first day here Bart. And that's why you have the 'Cool Yankee' medal.

[rickc]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Fighting in the cold 25 miles from your own border is one thing, fighting thousands of miles away, supported by precarious lines of supply is an entirely other thing. Lots of armies can fight in the cold, but doing it well in those conditions is another thing. Look at how successful armies invading Russia have been in the past couple of centuries, fighting in the cold at the end of very long supply lines.

Yes, the Chinese military is large, but it is also largely obsolete. Their navy is mostly made up of ships smaller than ours, their subs are either Russian made rustbuckets incapable of Arctic operations (or Chinese copies of the same), or noisy nuke boats that can be heard on the other side of the Pacific ocean, and their army has zero cold weather experience in more than two generations. Their air force is modernizing, but despite that, most of it is still Korean War vintage. China versus Canada alone in a fight in the Arctic would be difficult enough. Once NATO showed up, it'd be over in a matter of days.

Good point! Owning a huge chunk of tundra is a huge advantage for the home team,and the supply logistics for an invading army would be a nightmare.If tensions were high and NATO on alert,I would be surprised if one Chinese soldier set foot on Artic soil.I agree that China's chances of occuping Canada are zero.

This article raises some interesting issues.Why is China procurring icebreakers?What is thier intent? I seriously doubt that they would attempt brute force to take over parts of the Artic.That would be foolish.A more logical approach would be to homestead thier way in.Start patroling in the Artic,clear some lanes,invite themselves to conferences on the Artic.They can raise the tension level in the Artic.They can cut a backroom trade deal with Russia for support at negotiation meetings.They can threaten to dump U.S. debt to get concessions from the States.In short they can try to get a new deal"munich pact".They don't have to aquire actual land in the Artic.Preferred trade agreements for mineral rights would be just as good.

I am not saying any of this is going to happen.I am just throwing shit out there because I find the Artic an interesting topic.I am no fan of China.I see them causing many headaches in the 21st century for the west.I do admire the way that China always seems to have a plan to better themselves.They do not seem to haphazardly stumble down the road.

[rickc]

Bootlegga..........sorry I messed up your quote.It should have had your name for the quote.I must have missed a stroke.

[rickc]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

[


It also shows that Canadians do not back down from a fight. Do not discount our resolve to protect our interests either. We'll take on any comers, and we'll win. I'm proud that in our military history; we've never started a fight, stood our ground, and never lost. Not many armed forces can say that.

And as Boots says, an Arctic battle on our home ground would be a serious challenge for any invading military.

[/quote]
I would never discount your resolve to protect your interests.I was making the point that perhaps the west did not give enough credit to China during the Korean war.We were the guys that had won the big one a few years earlier.We felt all we had to do was show up,and the other guys would tuck tail and run.We underestimated our enemy,and we paid a heavy price for it.

[herbie]

The #1 threat to the Canadian Arctic is the US claim that the NW Passage is International Waters.
A military threat by Russia to our territory is about as likely as Canadians rushing to allow BP to drill for oil up there.
An arctic military threat by China is about as likely as us rushing to PAY BP to drill for oil in the Arctic.......... I mean keep it real guys. How is China gonna even GET their icebreaker into the Arctic?

[bootlegga]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

And as Boots says, an Arctic battle on our home ground would be a serious challenge for any invading military.

An Arctic battle on your home ground will be a more serious challenge for Canada.

Just for a war game scenario let's say that Russia quietly lands a well-prepared force on Banks Island, above the Arctic Circle. They set up an airfield and they land supplies and quickly get an anti-air battery set up.

What does Canada do to get them out? (And let's assume the US President is someone who is not all that keen on getting the US involved past writing nasty letters to the UN).

The closest fighter base to Banks Island is Cold Lake, Alberta, about 2100Km away. Your CF-188s have a fighting radius of about 550Km which can be extended with the use of the two tankers you have. Were I the Russians, I'd make a point of neutralizing those two tankers and that would put an end to your fighter threat to their base on Banks.

Now you have no air cover in the area until you build a forward base. Now the critical time of when the Russians are, so to speak, half on and half off the proverbial beach will be missed. So by the time Canada spins up the required logistics to take back the island the Russians have made it into their own little Gibraltar.

Your naval ice breakers don't figure in this because they don't exist. Your ground forces don't figure into it because they can't get there at all. Your submarines don't figure into it because the subs you have can't go under the ice that far.

So while a Russian seizure of Banks Island would pose issues for the Russians to hold onto it, the greater challenge falls to Canada to dislodge them.

It would be a challenge for anyone, even the Russians (although I agree they could definitely give us major headaches). My point was that China would have a much harder time operating in the Arctic than would Canada.

BTW, Canada has 7 tanker planes (2 CC-150s and 5 CC-130s), not two.

[GreenTiger]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

I hear ya Bart. I know we need these things. But one point, CF-18s from Cold Lake refuel out of Yellowknife all the time. It is their FOB.

That means having fighters operate out of Yellowknife. With no anti-air in place Yellowknife would just be a footnote on the Russian things-to-bomb list.

No offense, mind you. I'm just saying and I'm glad you realize I am 100% on Canada's side in this.

Seriously, if the balloon went up like this and the US stayed out I'd come volunteer for the CF. I'd also pay my own way.

I would be right next to you on the enlistment line.

[CommanderSock]

Just because China has a population of 1.3bn, it doesn't mean it will win a conflict with Canada.

Israel, with it's population of 3m (at the time) managed to take down the whole Arab world (well over 200 million).

Also, flashbacks of Japan-China war of 1900 come to mind.

The Chinese don't have the most stellar record of warfare.

[GreenTiger]

If it come to war remember the words of General Patton:
No one won a war by dying for his country,
he won it by making the other poor dumb bastard
die for his country.
We will make the Chinese die for their country

[Arctic_Menace]

GreenTiger GreenTiger:

If it come to war remember the words of General Patton:
No one won a war by dying for his country,
he won it by making the other poor dumb bastard
die for his country.
We will make the Chinese die for their country

But what if they really want to make us die for ours? It goes both ways after all.

[commanderkai]

And here comes the issue. I, much like almost every other member on this site, would love a much more powerful Canadian military. I'd want our shipyards producing icebreakers for the Canadian Arctic. I want more combat aircraft, attack helicopters, submarines...hell I'd love a Canadian carrier and an A-10 squadron.

However, Canadians need to accept that we actually need to fund the military...which means either higher taxes, or cutting some social spending. A well equipped military isn't really cheap. If the right doesn't want higher taxes, and the left complains about cutting social spending, then the third option is deficit spending...which nobody likes. And no, I don't want a pissing contest on which party fucks the military more.

I, personally, wouldn't mind some higher taxes to get a better funded military. But also, I'd want a lot pork barrel type spending diverted to the military. Sadly, that would cause a stink to some people.

So, until Canadians collectively decide the military needs more money, and we're going to give it to them, or there is a government willing to, at times, go against public opinion to divert funds, cut or cancel some social programs, or increase taxes (to fund the military, not more social programs) nobody will really be happy about anything. I don't see any government truly giving all the money the military needs until we all agree on this.

[CommanderSock]

Military tax.


This will keep it within budget and prevent ballooning of expenditure as it has in the USA. Military spending should only increase as long as Canadians can tolerate an increase in a 'military tax'.

[GreenTiger]

Arctic_Menace Arctic_Menace:

GreenTiger GreenTiger:

If it come to war remember the words of General Patton:
No one won a war by dying for his country,
he won it by making the other poor dumb bastard
die for his country.
We will make the Chinese die for their country

But what if they really want to make us die for ours? It goes both ways after all.

I'm not overly concerned with what they think. I would just
would just arrange for them to join their honorable
ancestors.

With enough of a deterrent though the Chinese bully boy
will think Twice. I haven't heard of the Chinese making the same
suggestion to to the Russians that 20% of what they have should
go to them. They know what the Russian airforce, army and navy would do to them.

[commanderkai]

CommanderSock CommanderSock:

Military tax.


This will keep it within budget and prevent ballooning of expenditure as it has in the USA. Military spending should only increase as long as Canadians can tolerate an increase in a 'military tax'.

Yes, a military tax is good, but I do think SOME money can be acquired cutting what I'd consider wasteful spending.

This also assumes we get enough manpower to use the equipment we purchase.

[Arctic_Menace]

Legalize marijuana and tax the hell out of it. At least a billion dollars right there. Encourage Canadians to have more babies so we have less old people and more people in jobs that need filling.