[EyeBrock]

andy, ok.

Walking/driving around with a crossbow is an offence.

Don't give me the boring defualt of 'Dziekanski'. Four wankers from the RCMP who had nothing to do with the G20 riots.

Cops are not a race. Stop blaming every cop for 'Dziekanski' I was 3500 miles away from this thing when it happened. I didn't do it!

See, that is your problem. You think cops are like the Borg or the SS.

We are just guys like you who serve.

And I rather like Pink Floyd.

[andyt]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

andy, ok.

Walking/driving around with a crossbow is an offence.

Don't give me the boring defualt of 'Dziekanski'. Four wankers from the RCMP who had nothing to do with the G20 riots.

Cops are not a race. Stop blaming every cop for 'Dziekanski' I was 3500 miles away from this thing when it happened. I didn't do it!

See, that is your problem. You think cops are like the Borg or the SS.

We are just guys like you who serve.

And I rather like Pink Floyd.

I'm not saying you're all the same. I'm saying when cops try to bullshit the public, which they do with some frequency, it hurts the cops, because it erodes their credibility. The chief had to admit some of the items displayed didn't belong there = it didn't help his cause.

If walking/driving around with a crossbow is an offense, how is a person supposed to get it home after purchase, or to the target range or out to the country for hunting? Same with guns - being in legal possession, and carrying it legally it not an offense. But all that is besides the point. Some dick head could have been illegally carrying that crossbow, I don't know, - but it had nothing to to with the G20, as admitted by the cops. So to display it with other items seized during the protests/riots, is trying to mislead the public.

Your ability to discern nuances seems to have left you around this issue. Critizing the cops does not make me a cop hater. Saying legit protesters should be left to do their thing, does not make me a Black Bloc sympathizer. The focus is on you guys because you're professionals, given a lot of powers over people - that needs to be watched carefully by the citizenry. The Black Bloc are just some assholes, not much scrutiny needed - arrest them when you can and throw their asses in jail. But leave the legit people alone.

[HyperionTheEvil]

The police lied?


Shocked! i am Shocked i say!

Police are not know for their forthrightness when they screw things up, it always seems to come back the thin blue line covering their own ass.


Police seem to forget, they work for us. Not the other way around

[HyperionTheEvil]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

This really is tough for you to comprehend isn't it?

There's you saying that protesters shouldn't be labelled and then there's the cops still doing their job during the G20.
These items were seized within the security zones purely because loads of cops were on duty.
It may not matter to you if people are driving around downtown Toronto with crossbows and chainsaws that are not protesters, but the cops have a job to do outside the security/crowd control duties we get. An offence is an offence. They were still cops on the G20 lines, sworn to enforce the law.

Even at the demo’s , if you punch your wife we will still lock you up for assault (domestic). G20 related or not. Cops still have a day-job.

These 'paintballer et al ' guys had all this crap on them during the G20 and in close vicinity to the G20? Come on, it wasn't G20 related but it was criminal, weapons related and of note.

I think the people who live in downtown Toronto might be interested in that shit, and so were the cops on duty.

On your attitude vs mine. I dunno mate. Was thinking that your attitude was kinda hardcore to say you weren’t even there.

I'd have a radical attitude as credible from my opposite number on this one. You really seemed to have missed the boat on the whole G20 riot thing.

Radicals with real practical knowledge and a cause are a credible but different opinion. I’ll listen. Really.

Radicals without the above, well. Not really credible. You guys know who you are.

No cause? WTF? Why should I listen to these guys who have nothing to say?


Really, most of the guys who gave me shit said they were teachers. What the hell is that?

I'll tell you what it is. Mis-directed focus.

I'm not angry andy, I'm just amazed that I can still be disappointed after all the stuff I've seen.

This weekend was disappointing. I expected something better from the demonstrators.

Well honestly Eye i have little or no sympathy for law enforcement on the G/20 protester issue. Basically because it come from the question that the whether the government has the right to mislead or lie to the public about laws and events Such as the so-called phantom "5 meter" law that was reportedly passed the night before the protest began.

It also raises the question as to whether the government, any government has the right to close off public space for a 'conference'. Seems to me that that in of itself is a violation of the right of freedom of the right of peaceful assembly on public land. and who exactly does law enforcement serve/ the public by actually reminding the government that it - the government- has s duty to respect all laws, not just those it finds convenient

If law enforcement becomes complicit in those action it also ends up just as much responsibility for the untruths that are given out on that and any other issues. The news conference where some 'weapons' were displayed in which it was claimed that they all were seized from protester when in fact some of them actually weren't undermines the credibility of law enforcement, no completely in of itself but it certainly builds upon the mistrust already in place.

Especially in Toronto where the police do not have happy history of good race relations


That all being said i also don't have much sympathy for law enforcement for other reasons. One of them being transparency, far too often with law enforcement has covered up crimes that police themselves have committed. This has not to do with just a 'few bad cops' but a cultural mentality that seems to think that because it was law enforcement members who commit these crimes that the 'right' think to do is for police to simultaneously close ranks and look away, and then affect "Shock" when these crimes are detected anyways.

For too long police have not been as transparent as they need to be and they themselves have broken the laws they swore to uphold


Frankly if the police are the watchers, we need someone, who must be a civilian and not either former law enforcement to watch the watchers to remind police that that they the public , and not themselves

[Benn]

HyperionTheEvil HyperionTheEvil:

Well honestly Eye i have little or no sympathy for law enforcement on the G/20 protester issue. Basically because it come from the question that the whether the government has the right to mislead or lie to the public about laws and events Such as the so-called phantom "5 meter" law that was reportedly passed the night before the protest began.

Am I not right to understand the regulation was written and free for all to read and it was in fact one journalist (or rights person) who didn't interpret it right and started the whole 5 meters outside thing, and the rest of the sheep piled onto it? So the Government is Guilty of not correcting a thrid party's mistake and in the process made the security perimeter safer by scaring people away?

$1:

It also raises the question as to whether the government, any government has the right to close off public space for a 'conference'. Seems to me that that in of itself is a violation of the right of freedom of the right of peaceful assembly on public land. and who exactly does law enforcement serve/ the public by actually reminding the government that it - the government- has s duty to respect all laws, not just those it finds convenient

Public property is really government property. One can peacefully assemble where allowed. Did someone add property rights into the constitution lately? Otherwise we really have the right to own nothing, which means technically public property is not ours to use as we wish but at the discretion of the government. That said I think that sucks, but its the way it is until we push to have it changed.

$1:

The news conference where some 'weapons' were displayed in which it was claimed that they all were seized from protester when in fact some of them actually weren't undermines the credibility of law enforcement, no completely in of itself but it certainly builds upon the mistrust already in place.

Someone was a dufus for putting those out there for sure. Trying to trick people? Eh...

$1:

That all being said i also don't have much sympathy for law enforcement for other reasons. One of them being transparency, far too often with law enforcement has covered up crimes that police themselves have committed. This has not to do with just a 'few bad cops' but a cultural mentality that seems to think that because it was law enforcement members who commit these crimes that the 'right' think to do is for police to simultaneously close ranks and look away, and then affect "Shock" when these crimes are detected anyways.

Covering them up too often eh? Its that rampant is it? No transparency? The Ottawa Police make a point of mentioning to the media every time one of their officer ends up in trouble. Name, years of service, charges, results. Very untransperent indeed.

$1:

For too long police have not been as transparent as they need to be and they themselves have broken the laws they swore to uphold

I will concead that in some cases they get off too easy. I believe cops are only human but that excuse ends at certain crimes. Should police be held to a higher standard? I've heard officers say no yet their own recruiting processes say yes!

$1:

Frankly if the police are the watchers, we need someone, who must be a civilian and not either former law enforcement to watch the watchers to remind police that that they the public , and not themselves

In Ontario that would be the SIU.

[BionicBunny]

Maybe the police should have said they were items seized during the G20 event. Just because law enforcement seized an item away from the protest area doesn't mean it wouldn't have been used in the protest.

[HyperionTheEvil]

$1:

Am I not right to understand the regulation was written and free for all to read and it was in fact one journalist (or rights person) who didn't interpret it right and started the whole 5 meters outside thing, and the rest of the sheep piled onto it? So the Government is Guilty of not correcting a thrid party's mistake and in the process made the security perimeter safer by scaring people away?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/pol ... le1626001/

Here is the answer to your question

The 'law' was posted publicly several times, but they continually obfuscated the details and only when pressed did they admit they gave inaccuarate informatiomn

$1:

Public property is really government property. One can peacefully assemble where allowed. Did someone add property rights into the constitution lately? Otherwise we really have the right to own nothing, which means technically public property is not ours to use as we wish but at the discretion of the government. That said I think that sucks, but its the way it is until we push to have it changed.

Actually its public property and we have have full access to our rights under the Charter. The government can only abrogate those laws with acts of either Parliament or a legislature using the Non withstanding act to override the charter.
If not using the NWC then governments, all of the from from civic to federal are legally obligated to make sure that those rights are portected

$1:

Someone was a dufus for putting those out there for sure. Trying to trick people? Eh...

The dufus in question made a claim that all of the "weapons" were seized from protestors. If an error was madd it was , again, made by the police

$1:

Covering them up too often eh? Its that rampant is it? No transparency? The Ottawa Police make a point of mentioning to the media every time one of their officer ends up in trouble. Name, years of service, charges, results. Very untransperent indeed.

Even once is to many, i remember very clearly years ago in Winnipeg the aboriginal justice inquiry when police officers we're found to have lied on the stand, changed their notes of events well after the facts.


Or the Taman inquiry where a Drunk Winnipeg police officer Derek Harvey-Zenk, drove into and killed Crystal Taman . witnesses to the inquiry gave clear testimony that they were intimidated by police, not to mention an intentionally sloppy investigation by the East St Paul police. and whats happened to Denk. He gets to plead out and no jail time after killing a woman

Not to mention the "Midnight" rides in Saskatchewan where aboriginals were dropped off outisde of town in sub-zero weather that resulted in deaths

$1:

I will concead that in some cases they get off too easy. I believe cops are only human but that excuse ends at certain crimes. Should police be held to a higher standard? I've heard officers say no yet their own recruiting processes say yes!

Sorry, if you sign up as a cop you get held to a higher standard. That's what taking an oath is all about. If you cant hold yourself to that higher standard as a police officer then GTFO.

$1:

In Ontario that would be the SIU.

First are they all civilians or they more law enforcement? If the are actually law enforcement then they simply add another layer of bureaucracy to the problem and secondly a civilian council should be in charge of the police department, preferably with with a visible minorities have a decisive role in such an organization

[EyeBrock]

Hyperion.

You slag us off and you don't even know that we have the SIU (civilian), OIPRD (civilian) plus all the internal investigation, civilian run police services boards (local councillors and provincial appointees).


As Benn said, the 5 metre thing was inside the fence and for a specfic area and it was under an existing act without any power of arrest. The media didn't read the regulation properly and reported it wrongly and it was swallowed by all the cop haters.

Another one spouting off about things they know nothing about in an attempt to slur the cops.

Read up a bit on the subject and try debating when you actually have some facts. The stuff you are spouting now isn't even worth any further countering as it's just so un-informed.

You must have been a great team player when you were in the Navy. Why did you leave again?

[Choban]

andyt andyt:

The usual police bullshit:

$1:

Barrett, 25, of Whitby, Ont., was en route to a west-end park for a role-playing fantasy game called Amtgard when police stopped him at Union Station on Saturday...

His homemade shield, foam-covered baton, scale-mail vest, and roll of hockey tape sat next to bear spray, a modified BB-gun, and gas masks.

Barrett was enraged to see his property associated with violence and vandalism.

$1:

Blair had already been forced to admit that a chainsaw and crossbow on display at the news conference had nothing to do with G20 protests.

Same with when they make a drug bust and claim it's worth 8 trillion dollars on the street.

Bear Spray, Gas masks and a modified BB gun, sounds like typical fare for a night playing a role playing game, or better yet for violence and vandalism

[mentalfloss]

Choban Choban:

Bear Spray, Gas masks and a modified BB gun, sounds like typical fare for a night playing a role playing game, or better yet for violence and vandalism

While these things do seem suspect, the police could have just asked him what they were for - and when he gave his story/alibi, just cruise him on out of the city. He didn't have to be interrogated for over 3 hours, nor did his public property have to be put on display to make him an example of them whippersnappers causing a ruckus.

It really isn't that difficult a problem to resolve. Unfortunately, the cops now have this tainted image to worry about since more than half of their arrests were done so illegitimately.

You see, you can use these words to talk to people and communicate ideas to them to come to a peaceful solution. Its not as fun as beating someone, but saves you a bit of trouble later.

[Proculation]

The policemen were not really into talking last weekend.

[andyt]

Choban Choban:

Bear Spray, Gas masks and a modified BB gun, sounds like typical fare for a night playing a role playing game, or better yet for violence and vandalism

You seem to have Eye Brock disease, where everything gets conflated into one big mess. The medieval guy was carrying non of the things you mention here. He was carrying homemade armor and arrows with customized tips not to cause damage. He said he understood why the police might seize his stuff, but to display it alongside actual items seized in realation to the G20 just made it guilt by association. A favorite police tactic, it seems.

[andyt]

BionicBunny BionicBunny:

Maybe the police should have said they were items seized during the G20 event. Just because law enforcement seized an item away from the protest area doesn't mean it wouldn't have been used in the protest.

Wow - how far are you willing to extend that circle anyway? Better seize all guns in Canada, 'cause they might be used in the protest as well. Better yet, put all Canadians in preventive detention - you never know if they're black bloc or not. Better safe than sorry.

[Choban]

mentalfloss mentalfloss:

Choban Choban:

Bear Spray, Gas masks and a modified BB gun, sounds like typical fare for a night playing a role playing game, or better yet for violence and vandalism

While these things do seem suspect, the police could have just asked him what they were for - and when he gave his story/alibi, just cruise him on out of the city. He didn't have to be interrogated for over 3 hours, nor did his public property have to be put on display to make him an example of them whippersnappers causing a ruckus.

It really isn't that difficult a problem to resolve. Unfortunately, the cops now have this tainted image to worry about since more than half of their arrests were done so illegitimately.

You see, you can use these words to talk to people and communicate ideas to them to come to a peaceful solution. Its not as fun as beating someone, but saves you a bit of trouble later.

When cops are dealing with a security operation of this size do we really expect them to just talk to this guy on the street and escort him to his geek game? No I don't, he was suspect and carrying things that could very well have been involved in violence and vandalism at the protests, as far as displaying them to the public as such that's a different story and they should not have been included, at the time of his detention though I fully support what they police did. I saw no mention of beating this individual.

[Choban]

andyt andyt:

Choban Choban:

Bear Spray, Gas masks and a modified BB gun, sounds like typical fare for a night playing a role playing game, or better yet for violence and vandalism

You seem to have Eye Brock disease, where everything gets conflated into one big mess. The medieval guy was carrying non of the things you mention here. He was carrying homemade armor and arrows with customized tips not to cause damage. He said he understood why the police might seize his stuff, but to display it alongside actual items seized in realation to the G20 just made it guilt by association. A favorite police tactic, it seems.

The medieval guy was carrying none of the things you mention here? I believe your wrong as I quoted it from your very first post. I agree with you thast they should not have been displayed with the stuff from the protest seizures but I diagree that they should have let someone have these items in public given the time and place of his possessing them.