[bootlegga]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

We're all forgetting areas where huge savings can be realized. Scrap the Senate, if we don't elect it, we don't need it. If we're gonna have one, at least give some semblance of representation. Which brings us to cut number 2. A cap on what MP's can make in a year which would entail an immediate cut in pay AND perks. The 6 year service, full pension bullshit at the senior level has to go as well.
We could save a nice chunk of change before going on to reduce the duplication of services and the elimination of "niche" services.
But that'll never happen because the pigs at the trough will never willingly pull themsleves away from it.

You can't get rid of the Senate without changing the Constitution, which needs the approval of each and every province. And even if you could cut it, you'd only save maybe $500 hundred million a year, which is chump change compared to our $50 billion deficit.

As for MP pay cuts and pension reduction, that will never happen. Even supposedly holier than thou eform MPs reneged on their promise not to gorge themselves on a fat government pension.

[DerbyX]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

$1:

Nope. I just aren't going to waste much more time on you.

Yeah you will. That's what you're doing right now. (lol.."I aren't")

$1:

You haven't proven your assertion as everyone can plainly see.

Yeah. I have. Once more since you can't seem to read:

$1:

Canadians pay highest tax in G7 nations
...
According to the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) and even the federal finance department, Canada's personal income tax burden is the highest of all G7 nations, write John Williamson and Mark Milke.

link

Once again you fail to understand that your claim was an attempt to denigrate Liberal leadership through the ages and should prove how our taxes were higher during then comparatively so.

In addition you have cowardly dodged your other claims but I'll cut you some slack seeing as you knew it was BS the moment you posted it.

Even if your link is true all it shows is that Harper is responsible for running the highest taxed country in the G7 when by link showed we were way down when the Libs were in charge. Hardly proof that being a nation paying more tax then most people on earth is a result of longer Liberal leadership through the years.

Thats to say nothing of the facts I keep showing you that we aren't.

[Akhenaten]

$1:

Thats to say nothing of the facts I keep showing you that we aren't

Opps again:

$1:

Comparison of taxes paid by a household earning the country's average wage (as of 2005)
Australia 28.3% 16.0% Korea 17.3% 16.2%
Austria 47.4% 35.5% Luxembourg 35.3% 12.2%
Belgium 55.4% 40.3% Mexico 18.2% 18.2%
Canada 31.6% 21.5% Netherlands 38.6% 29.1%
Czech Republic 43.8% 27.1% New Zealand 20.5% 14.5%
Denmark 41.4% 29.6% Norway 37.3% 29.6%
Finland 44.6% 38.4% Poland 43.6% 42.1%
France 50.1% 41.7% Portugal 36.2% 26.6%
Germany 51.8% 35.7% Slovak Republic 38.3% 23.2%
Greece 38.8% 39.2% Spain 39.0% 33.4%
Hungary 50.5% 39.9% Sweden 47.9% 42.4%
Iceland 29.0% 11.0% Switzerland 29.5% 18.6%
Ireland 25.7% 8.1% Turkey 42.7% 42.7%
Italy 45.4% 35.2% United Kingdom 33.5% 27.1%
Japan 27.7% 24.9% United States 29.1% 11.9%

That's high up there...at the end of the Liberal era (although note the list is alphabetical not in order highest to lowwest)link

$1:

In addition you have cowardly dodged your other claims but I'll cut you some slack seeing as you knew it was BS the moment you posted it.

No. You've dodged them. Military cuts and a limp manufacturing sector. I'm not backing away from it, you are. Here you go again with your double-speak. You admit you're going to ignore them then claim I'm the one ignoring them.

[DerbyX]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

Comparison of taxes paid by a household earning the country's average wage (as of 2005)
Australia 28.3% 16.0% Korea 17.3% 16.2%
Austria 47.4% 35.5% Luxembourg 35.3% 12.2%
Belgium 55.4% 40.3% Mexico 18.2% 18.2%
Canada 31.6% 21.5% Netherlands 38.6% 29.1%
Czech Republic 43.8% 27.1% New Zealand 20.5% 14.5%
Denmark 41.4% 29.6% Norway 37.3% 29.6%
Finland 44.6% 38.4% Poland 43.6% 42.1%
France 50.1% 41.7% Portugal 36.2% 26.6%
Germany 51.8% 35.7% Slovak Republic 38.3% 23.2%
Greece 38.8% 39.2% Spain 39.0% 33.4%
Hungary 50.5% 39.9% Sweden 47.9% 42.4%
Iceland 29.0% 11.0% Switzerland 29.5% 18.6%
Ireland 25.7% 8.1% Turkey 42.7% 42.7%
Italy 45.4% 35.2% United Kingdom 33.5% 27.1%
Japan 27.7% 24.9% United States 29.1% 11.9%


That's us in the top 4. link

You do realize thats because its being listed alphabetically right?

[Akhenaten]

Yep, after the fact. Try this instead:

$1:

The Canadian tax system is complex and no single number can summarize it. The same is true of comparisons between Canada and the rest of the world. Foreign tax systems are different and governments abroad provide their citizens with different levels of services. This means that comparing the total amount of taxes paid in Canada and in, say, Japan may tell us little about whether taxes are too high in one country relative to the other. For example, Canada may tax more than other countries but it may provide more and better public services. That is, the tax price of government activity may be lower here. This sort of subtlety does not mean, however, that international comparisons are meaningless. There are some numbers that can give us a broad feel for the differences between the systems.

and this:

$1:

A closer look reveals that Canada has the highest income and profit taxes as a percentage of total taxes, the lowest social security taxes, and high property taxes. Some claim that these low social security taxes give Canada room to raise contribution rates but they miss certain facts.

Table 8.1: International Tax Comparisons, 1996

Total tax as a percent of GDP
Taxes as a percent of total taxes

Income and Profits
Social Security
Property
Goods and Services
Other

United States 28.5 47.2 24.7 11.0 17.2 0.0
Japan 28.4 36.6 36.5 11.3 15.4 0.2
United Kingdom 36.0 36.8 17.3 10.6 35.2 0.1
Canada 36.8 47.3 16.3 10.4 24.9 1.1
OECD average 37.7 35.3 25.1 5.4 32.5 1.7
Germany 38.1 28.4 40.6 3.0 27.9 0.1
Italy 43.2 34.4 34.2 5.4 25.9 0.1
France 45.7 18.0 43.1 5.1 27.3 6.5
Sweden 52.0 41.0 29.8 3.8 22.8 2.6

Top 4 again...in 1996.
link
You'll notice that one isnt alphbetical.


"off you go now"

[DerbyX]

Here you did alter when you realized your mistake no doubt praying I hadn't already quoted it.

Still, high up there sunshine? Not first are we thereby nullifying your argument entirely. Hell, if you do list then by either column Canada would still fall middle thereby proving my point we are not taxed higher then most people on earth.

Give it up sunshine. Admit your error and slink away unless you want to still claim Canada has no manufacturing base to speak of. That would be worth a chuckle.

[DerbyX]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

Yep, after the fact. Try this instead:

$1:

The Canadian tax system is complex and no single number can summarize it. The same is true of comparisons between Canada and the rest of the world. Foreign tax systems are different and governments abroad provide their citizens with different levels of services. This means that comparing the total amount of taxes paid in Canada and in, say, Japan may tell us little about whether taxes are too high in one country relative to the other. For example, Canada may tax more than other countries but it may provide more and better public services. That is, the tax price of government activity may be lower here. This sort of subtlety does not mean, however, that international comparisons are meaningless. There are some numbers that can give us a broad feel for the differences between the systems.

and this:

$1:

A closer look reveals that Canada has the highest income and profit taxes as a percentage of total taxes, the lowest social security taxes, and high property taxes. Some claim that these low social security taxes give Canada room to raise contribution rates but they miss certain facts.

Table 8.1: International Tax Comparisons, 1996

Total tax as a percent of GDP
Taxes as a percent of total taxes

Income and Profits
Social Security
Property
Goods and Services
Other

United States 28.5 47.2 24.7 11.0 17.2 0.0
Japan 28.4 36.6 36.5 11.3 15.4 0.2
United Kingdom 36.0 36.8 17.3 10.6 35.2 0.1
Canada 36.8 47.3 16.3 10.4 24.9 1.1
OECD average 37.7 35.3 25.1 5.4 32.5 1.7
Germany 38.1 28.4 40.6 3.0 27.9 0.1
Italy 43.2 34.4 34.2 5.4 25.9 0.1
France 45.7 18.0 43.1 5.1 27.3 6.5
Sweden 52.0 41.0 29.8 3.8 22.8 2.6

Top 4 again...in 1996.
link
You'll notice that one isnt alphbetical.


"off you go now"

Just more proof that we aren't number one. Someday I tell you about this exact argument played out when I lived in the UK and Australia. Both times then they said they were getting hosed.

I'll just point out again that all your data is doing is proving that in direct contradiction to your words, Canada is not overtaxed more then most on earth.

[Akhenaten]

$1:

Here you did alter when you realized your mistake no doubt praying I hadn't already quoted it.

Nope. You're teh one that lives and breaths by what others think of you, not me.

$1:

Not first are we thereby nullifying your argument entirely.

Mnnn, no. We covered this already. I never said the most. In fact i said somewhere in the top ten or top five. YOU said I said the highest because you can't argue what was said and instead must argue what someone didn't say. I guess it's YOU who blatantly lies.

It shows you right there that we are way above average and in the top 4. That's good enough for my assertion. Naturally you stopped reading the documentation right there since you know it proves exactly what I said, especially the part about the dnagers of making comparrisons.
Further....

$1:

Table 8.2: Percentage Change in Taxes From 1965 to 1996

Total change (Percentage)
Change by tax type (Percentage)

Profit and Income
Social Security
Property
Goods and Services

United States 17.3 15.4 118.8 -20.5 10.9
Japan 55.2 30.0 160.0 113.3 8.3
United Kingdom 18.4 16.8 31.9 13.6 25.7
Canada 42.1 74.0 328.6 2.7 13.3
OECD average 45.0 47.3 104.2 0.0 23.7
Germany 20.6 0.9 82.4 38.9 1.9
Italy 69.4 223.9 70.1 27.8 10.9
France 32.5 49.1 66.9 53.3 5.3
Sweden 48.6 10.9 269.0 233.3 8.3

Same link. Shows us in the top 5 and way above average between '65 and '96. During all those liberal years. So when you say the country has been run by the liberals for 75 years and i point out that during that time we've been paying higher taxes than most anyone I'm pretty close to the mark. When i say we've been in the top ten or sometimes the top 5 I'm dead correct.

[Akhenaten]

$1:

Just more proof that we aren't number one

Unfortunately you and I both know that's not what I said. Here you are lying again at a million miles per hour.More lies:

$1:

I'll just point out again that all your data is doing is proving that in direct contradiction to your words, Canada is not overtaxed more then most on earth.

Now you say "most" not "number one". Just can't go two sentences without contridicting yourself...all the while accusing me of contridicting myself

It proves exactly what i said Derby. Here you are again with your "up is down" statements. The data shows exactly what I said. We are taxed more than most anyone and in the top ten or sometimes top 5. That's what I said Derby. You can try and spin it all you like but you're just showing everyone here what a complete liar you are.

$1:

Once again you fail to understand that your claim was an attempt to denigrate Liberal leadership through the ages and should prove how our taxes were higher during then comparatively so.

I just did that. now how will you spin the argument I wonder

[PublicAnimalNo9]

DerbyX DerbyX:

3) We have no manufacturing to speak of. You make sure to prove that one since it seems we have a large auto industry, or at least did until we elected Harper.

Once again, a liberal blames Harper for a world wide problem. Are you telling me that Harper has SOOOO much power he can single handedly bring down the North American auto industry? I mean c'mon Derby, did ya even think before you posted that one?
So by your logic, if Dion had won the last election, the great global recession never would'a happened and GM and Chrysler wouldn't have gone bankrupt?
Ohhhh that's right, it's ALL Harper's fault that the unions were greedy, that company execs abused their positions and drove those companies into the ground.
Must be Harper's fault the same thing happened in the US too eh?

[PublicAnimalNo9]

bootlegga bootlegga:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

We're all forgetting areas where huge savings can be realized. Scrap the Senate, if we don't elect it, we don't need it. If we're gonna have one, at least give some semblance of representation. Which brings us to cut number 2. A cap on what MP's can make in a year which would entail an immediate cut in pay AND perks. The 6 year service, full pension bullshit at the senior level has to go as well.
We could save a nice chunk of change before going on to reduce the duplication of services and the elimination of "niche" services.
But that'll never happen because the pigs at the trough will never willingly pull themsleves away from it.

You can't get rid of the Senate without changing the Constitution, which needs the approval of each and every province. And even if you could cut it, you'd only save maybe $500 hundred million a year, which is chump change compared to our $50 billion deficit.

As for MP pay cuts and pension reduction, that will never happen. Even supposedly holier than thou eform MPs reneged on their promise not to gorge themselves on a fat government pension.

Yeah I know, I was gonna bring up the Reform's fuck up in that area. It's a pipe dream I know because it would require the bloddsuckers at the top to show some restraint.

[DerbyX]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

DerbyX DerbyX:

3) We have no manufacturing to speak of. You make sure to prove that one since it seems we have a large auto industry, or at least did until we elected Harper.

Once again, a liberal blames Harper for a world wide problem. Are you telling me that Harper has SOOOO much power he can single handedly bring down the North American auto industry? I mean c'mon Derby, did ya even think before you posted that one?
So by your logic, if Dion had won the last election, the great global recession never would'a happened and GM and Chrysler wouldn't have gone bankrupt?
Ohhhh that's right, it's ALL Harper's fault that the unions were greedy, that company execs abused their positions and drove those companies into the ground.
Must be Harper's fault the same thing happened in the US too eh?

Read the whole thing. Ank made a moronic statement that implied Canada had no manufacturing to speak of due to the number of years the Liberals were in power over the decades. I made the that tongue in cheek comment as a dig that our manufacturing industry only became imperiled under the Harper tenure.

Nobody is blaming Harper for the economic crisis. Thats just con lies. People are blaming Harper for his "everythings fine BS despite evidence it wasn't".

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Yeah, that I can agree with. I mean if we were on the other side of the world I could see him thinking everything was gonna be fine. But with our economy tied so closely to the US, you didn't need to be psychic to see what was gonna happen.

[DerbyX]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

Now you say "most" not "number one". Just can't go two sentences without contridicting yourself...all the while accusing me of contridicting myself

You keep trying to spin what you said and keep trying to claim I'm misrepresenting what you said.

You have yet to back up a single claim (as usual).

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

<yawn> That must be why we've gotten nowhere, pay more taxes than most anyone on earth, have no military, no manufacturing to speak of....

Most anyone on earth means what? We aren't even most everyone in the G7 and those that pay less tax then us do so because they generally aren't living in industrialized nations. You whole statement was just lying double speak and we all know it.

Of course you can still prove this eh sunshine? Even the evidence you use still puts us somewhere in the middle and thats nowhere near "most anyone on earth."

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

It proves exactly what i said Derby. Here you are again with your "up is down" statements. The data shows exactly what I said. We are taxed more than most anyone and in the top ten or sometimes top 5. That's what I said Derby. You can try and spin it all you like but you're just showing everyone here what a complete liar you are.

No you didn't. Its right there on page 5. pay more taxes than most anyone on earth. Nothing about the top 10 or top 5. More of your lies. In fact even being in the top 10 doesn't mean a whole lot when you provide no analysis in the least. Whats the tax difference between 1 and say 20? Of course you are spinning your little wheels because you actually thought that Canadians were so unfairly and highly taxed compared to most anyone on earth.

Hell you didn't even take into account anything like we have a much better standard of living then most anyone on earth because of it. The evidence has shown that we aren't even taxed more then anyone in the OECD does it sunshine? Not unless your definition of "most" is "whatever the hell you want it to be" which to be fair might just be the case.

Nope. You just made a hasty statement and I tore it to shreds like I always do to you sunshine.

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

I just did that. now how will you spin the argument I wonder

Really, you used this to attack the Libs eh? Thats why you started using earlier data points when you saw my point about using one from 2008 saying we are overtaxed.

Now I'd like to see you deal with your BS that somehow the Liberals were responsible for the fact Canada "has no manufacturing to speak of", and "no military to speak of".

This time be sure to understand the argument you are trying to butcher.

[PluggyRug]

So who will be the next Liberal leader after Iggy's gone?

Methinks Donald Duck is in the running.